The Value of Mirrorless: A post by Thom Hogan that is DEAD ON

Discussion in 'The Watering Hole' started by entropic remnants, May 1, 2013.

  1. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Hall of Famer

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    What Constitutes Value? | Sans Mirror — mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan

    He says they have value but the manufacturers have NO idea how to communicate that. His sarcastic take on how people market them from the post linked above:

  2. Stan

    Stan Regular

    Apr 19, 2013
    LOL! I like Thom Hogan's style, because we need someone who will put pressure on the companies to do better, not that there aren't good tools available.

    Whoever is first to make a camera with great iOS/Droid integration with an app store is going win big.
  3. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Hall of Famer

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    That could very well be -- but I'm not that customer. I want small, versatile, good quality, and good handling. I don't need android/wifi/apps etc. for the way I work -- but I suppose I'm a "Luddite", lol...
  4. snkenai

    snkenai All-Pro

    Oct 5, 2010
    kenai, AK
    Stephen Noel
    I just want a durable, easy to use camera with a fast 50mm equiv, that has killer sharp JPEG, that doesn't have to be replaced every two years. Oh, and with a great VF and near silent shutter. One that I can afford, on my SS fixed income. Is that too much to ask? :smile:
    Apparently so.
  5. KillRamsey

    KillRamsey Super Moderator

    Jun 20, 2012
    Cambridge, MA
    Read it, took the survey. His list of mirrorless cameras doesn't include the X100 or X100S... odd.
  6. Agree on the price side. If you are not wanting a mirrorless camera already, it is a hard sell to pay more for a smaller camera.

    On the NEX side, (that's all I know), last year the NEX-7 came out with some amazing features, but a price tag over $1000.00, not including lenses. Then the NEX-6 came out and was just under $1000.00. Again great features, but very pricey. There are plenty of users that have jumped on these NEX's and love them, but lets be real, the cost is a bit much. I agree both the NEX-6 and 7 are sexy as heck and are very tempting. I love that you can get a camera comparable to a DSLR in half the size. Such a great selling point and one that I love. However, if you stack the feature list side by side with a moderate DSLR that costs $3-400 less, it is a hard sell if size does not matter.

    As an enthusiast, I have a growing passion for photography, but I also like to pay the electric bill, my mortgage, etc. This is a hobby for me. I don't plan on making money at it and must temper my desires with my other hobbies, my wives' hobbies and life itself. I originally bought the NEX-3, (original), because I was looking to get more out of photography, but not quite ready for the size and complexity of full on DSLR's. I was excited that I could get a interchangeable lens camera that was small enough to meet my needs, powerful enough to develop my skills further, and yet not break the bank at around $400.00. Just a few months ago I was able to upgrade to the NEX-F3 for about the same price.

    I am glad to see that Sony, (again cannot relate to the other brands), is expanding and developing even more powerful NEX's, while at the same time keeping those looking for a less expensive option happy.
  7. Interesting read, thanks for the link.

    I could just copy/paste Dave's response above, having gotten NEX 3 for the same reasons he stated. And still clinging to it, as it still works and accomplishes everything it did two years ago:) Idea is to upgrade to NEX 6 or 7 once they drop in price.
  8. Biro

    Biro Super Moderator

    Aug 7, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Thom's observation that many mirrorless cameras tend to sit on shelves when new (at least in the U.S.) but sell well during close-out discounts rings true. I have purchased nearly all of my cameras that way. Clearly the cameramakers haven't yet figured out the U.S. market.
  9. Djarum

    Djarum All-Pro

    Jul 10, 2010
    Huntsville, AL
    One of the things that has to be mentioned here though is that if we look at the closeouts, most of them were from the same sensor generation cameras. There is no distinguishable difference between the sensor on my E-PL2 as there was on the E-PL3 or E-P3 for that matter. The biggest difference was AF speed. Was that worth the premium for a new camera? No. At closeout? Sure, why not. The RX100 which has similar image quality to previous gen m43 cameras is running at 1.5 times the price of some of these cameras. For 600 bucks, one can get a discounted m43 body and a Panny 20mm and have a nice setup. At 800-900 bucks msrp for such a kit, the RX100 looks more palatable. For newcomers, entry DSLR still provides the best bank for the buck in many situations.

    I also think that all camera companys are missing the boat with a larger sensor fixed lens zoom camera like the RX100. I think as more of these cameras emerge, mirrorless will be for people who absolutely need to change lenses.
  10. Andrewteee

    Andrewteee All-Pro

    Jul 8, 2010
    I think lens selection is an important part of the equation. There are a ton of DSLR lenses available, many of them inexpensive high quality lenses. There aren't that many mirrorless lenses yet; M43s has the best selection at the moment. Of course, fixed lens cameras don't need interchangable lenses and those are the cameras I tend to shoot.
  11. Djarum

    Djarum All-Pro

    Jul 10, 2010
    Huntsville, AL
    I agree. I also think Sigma needs to make a more serious effort. While the two mFT lenses they've come up with aren't bad, its obvious that they aren't dedicated to the format IMHO. I think Sigma has the capability to make mFT lenses in proper focal lengths that would exceed the quality and beat the price of both Panasonic and Olympus.
  12. bartjeej

    bartjeej Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Nov 12, 2010
    As I understand it, SansMirror is about camera's with an interchangeable lens (CSC's / MILCs / EVILs / however you want to call them)
  13. Agree, will be keeping an eye out on NEX 6-7 prices. However I am plenty pleased with my current set up.
  14. My first NEX-3 was an open box, replacement F3 was an used Ebay item. Saved $60-80 each time.
  15. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants Hall of Famer

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    I did buy my E-M5 while they were still hard to get. But I was replacing my Nikon DSLR's and needed to do a complete system changeover selling all of one and buying heavily into the other.

    Since then, I've been shopping for discounts (or trades in some cases which is how I got the G5).
  16. BigTam

    BigTam Regular

    Jun 23, 2011
    Dortmund, Germany
    True, but if you like wide angle, APS-C is not great. And the longer focal lengths tend to be large and heavy, unavoidable for the larger sensors.
  17. NightBird

    NightBird Regular

    Apr 23, 2013
    Sydney, Australia
    I think the AF issues of the past will soon be a non issue, even for those who really need C/AF.

    I get the "mirrorless v DSLR" competition thing, but for me, it's not a matter of one is better than the other in a particular feature. It's just that each one, at least for the moment, do indeed have some things they do better than each other. Regardless of some mirrorless being more expensive than DSLR's, mirrorless suites me as it does most others for for it's balance of size / performance and IQ. Enthusiasts can perhaps see this more easily than basic consumers, who are still often attracted to their choice of camera based off what they heard someone talk about 5 years ago. They may see a OM-D E-M5 and a D7100 kit for around the same price, and if size isn't an issue for them, the D7100 is very very attractive. But indeed, these cameras are very different, and in other ways that aren't always evident to them.

    "Every camera is a compromise"