Sony Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 - first impressions and low light shots

The Sony UI on the RX100 is part of what scared me off this one initially.

I have used Pentax, Nikon, Sony, and Olympus cameras. Essentially, I find the UI the same. This is a serious question. I don't quite understand how Sony is such an outlier and why the UI would prevent you from buying a camera--I could understand it if the shutter button was placed in the battery compartment and the menus used codes rather than words. What made you return the RX-100?
 
1/2000s to 1/4000s depending on the aperture.

And this is what I don't understand. When you want a mini van, why is a sports car even a consideration. Size and simplicity is what the RX-1 is about. If you are looking for a large DSLR with interchangeable lenses, why is the RX-1 even in the mix. It is not about the sensor size.

Right, if I was willing to shoot with a big (or even medium sized) DSLR, I'm sure I'd have been using full frame for some time now. As is, this is my first full frame since the film days and I'm enjoying it a lot. But still not enough to carry a full DSLR system.

-Ray
 
1/2000s to 1/4000s depending on the aperture.

And this is what I don't understand. When you want a mini van, why is a sports car even a consideration. Size and simplicity is what the RX-1 is about. If you are looking for a large DSLR with interchangeable lenses, why is the RX-1 even in the mix. It is not about the sensor size.

I'm sure Stanleyk will clarify. I suspect for him it might not be about the sports car or minivan, but what he wants to do with them. He has some good lenses which would work in a D800, so why not spend about the same and have a more flexible option? Seems like a fair question. Size doesn't seem to really bother him. As for simplicity, I suppose a D800 can be as simple or as complex as you want or need it to be. Apart from the single lens, the same could be said of the RX1 - it's clearly a very capable camera.
 
I have used Pentax, Nikon, Sony, and Olympus cameras. Essentially, I find the UI the same. This is a serious question. I don't quite understand how Sony is such an outlier and why the UI would prevent you from buying a camera--I could understand it if the shutter button was placed in the battery compartment and the menus used codes rather than words. What made you return the RX-100?
I think the biggest thing for me is how intuitive it is to use and/or how much I can customize to make it intuitive. I think the problem I had with the RX100, beyond my obsession with being able to set any camera up to zone focus (an admittedly personal issue but a big one), was how much they squeezed into such a small camera. It seemed like most things I'd need to do required some sort of button push and then scrolling through a list of options (or turning the lens ring to sort through them) and then making your specific choices. Which beat having to go directly into the menus, but really not all that different. I never had that problem with the Nex 5, where I could customize the interface so that the controls I had to access a lot were only a single button push away and stuff I had to access occasionally was within two pushes. And the RX1 is just fine between the custom memory settings on the mode dial and the five programmable buttons. So it's highly customizable and easy to set up exactly how I want it. Two of my favorite interfaces are Ricoh and Olympus, which have somewhat complex menus but those menus allow for an amazing amount of customizability. Panasonic doesn't tend to allow for as much customizing, but their external controls are well enough laid out that I never felt the need to customize much. Fuji is similar and even more to my liking, at least once they got past the first few firmware updates on the X100, which was pretty out there initially.

I've been fine with most cameras I've used - the RX100 and Canon S90 were two of the rare examples I didn't really get along with. In both cases it was a matter of trying to stuff a lot of complexity into VERY small cameras. In retrospect I shouldn't have worried about the RX1, but the RX1 and RX100 seemed to have enough common attributes that I did worry. I was quite wrong, not for the last time! :)

-Ray
 
Here is an interesting low light af comparison of RX1 and X100s (around 3:25 if you don't watch the whole video):
[video=youtube;bkSxex2D43o]
 
Here is an interesting low light af comparison of RX1 and X100s (around 3:25 if you don't watch the whole video):
Yeah, I saw that. And I saw Steve Huff's AF video with the X100s too and both of those guys are pretty positive about it. But most of the folks who have them already on DPR and elsewhere seem to be forming a consensus that its waaaaay better than any previous Fujis (and, thus clearly the RX1) in good light - the PDAF really kicks it into another gear. But that in low light, the PDAF doesn't do much and it still hunts as much as the other Fuji models. So maybe it'll take a bit longer to know for sure. But based on my experience - I did quite a bit more testing of this last night - the RX1 is almost as fast as the 18mm lens on the X-Pro but is a LOT more sure and actually very difficult to make it hunt. Whereas the Fuji will hunt a LOT unless there's some pretty clearly contrasty item to grab focus on. The caveat is that the RX1 doesn't automatically focus wide open and then stop down to take the shot. from f2 to f8, it focuses at the aperture you've selected and at smaller than f8, it focusses at f8. So if you don't make sure the lens is pretty wide open in low light, then it will hunt quite a lot. But open it up to f2 or f2.8 and its amazing how sure the AF is. Not a speed demon, but it locks on first time every time. I was getting this result in light so low that it had to go to iso 12800 to get an exposure at f2 and 1/40 of a second, so low I'd probably never actually try to shoot in it - just a distant indirect hall light illuminating a basically dark bedroom. But it kept nailing focus on pretty low-contrast scenes over and over. The Fuji can't do that - if the X100s can, I'll tip my hat to it big time.

The caveat that I haven't fully checked out is that the Fuji seems to AF better in low light when set to continuous AF, rather than single shot AF. Mike's video uses C-AF for the Fuji and normal A-FS for the Sony. I've never spent much time with the Fuji in C-AF, but I just did some playing around with it and its IS a lot better. Finding focus in some pretty frighteningly low light situations. Its hunting plenty when you're not focussed on anything in particular, but once you aim it at a target, it seems very good. Why haven't I been using the damn thing this way all along in low light? I don't have a good answer for that. I'm gonna have to start and remember to use the X100s that way when I go to compare them.

So, my preliminary guess is that the X100s will smoke the RX1 in good light, but may not keep up with it in terms of finding focus in low light. We'll see as more X100s cameras hit the street. I hope to have one myself sometime in the next few weeks...

-Ray
 
I will look forward to see your X100s review and comparisons.

On Sony nex, there is a new af tech art adapter is coming for contax g lenses. The testers are reporting similarly af experience for wide angle lenses, eg focus is excellent under or equal to f/5.6 and poor by f/11. Those lenses are older screw types, so slower speeds, but nex contrast af is behaving like your experience with the RX1.
 
Between Mike's video above and getting called out on a similar analysis on the DPR Sony forum, I've really learned something today that I probably should have known before this, given that I've been shooting with either the X100 or X-Pro for about two years now. C-AF is overwhelmingly better in low light on the Fujis than S-AF. I think I remember hearing this in the early days of the X100, trying it and not finding enough difference to pay much attention to, and then more or less rejecting the idea ever since. But I guess as Fuji has improved its firmware and then released the ILC models, they really got their act together on this. I just finished doing a low light torture test of sorts, using the X-Pro and the RX1. The RX1 was in S-AF (there's really only one AF mode on their little selector switch - the other options just give you partial or full manual focus), the X-Pro in both S-AF and C-AF. S-AF to S-AF the RX1 was immensely better than the Fuji, locking on consistently where the Fuji would hunt and hunt and only occasionally lock on eventually. BUT, switch the Fuji to C-AF and the cameras behaved more or less identically. Almost no hunting, consistently locking on at the first pass. And at basically the same speed. Couldn't really find a difference between them.

So, I feel like I just got another really good low light camera - I've sort of run from the X-Pro in tough focussing situations in low light. Its sensor is great in low light and when there's something to focus on, the images are great. But in low contrast situations, it was nearly impossible to get it to lock focus. Now I know it can - as long as we're using C-AF. I should have known this before now, for sure...

-Ray
 
Is AF all there really is to a came nowadays? How did we ever take pictures before? Oh my, they must have been terrible. In all seriousness, my GXR/28mm A12 with f/5.6, snap focus and auto-ISO killed it today. Just saying... and this was with kids moving faster than the speed of light.
 
Ray, you and I are on the same page, haha... Today was the first I heard about the Fuji AF-C mode being faster; I have always shot mine in AF-S so now I'll have to back and try things again. Go figure.

And I agree about the RX1, it's not a speed demon but it's good at grabbing focus without hunting even in tough conditions.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about the eyecup - switched mine out for the smaller one, and I'm much happier with the smaller profile. It's a small detail, but it makes it much more pocketable w/EVF attached and I'm digging it a lot.
 
Is AF all there really is to a came nowadays? How did we ever take pictures before? Oh my, they must have been terrible. In all seriousness, my GXR/28mm A12 with f/5.6, snap focus and auto-ISO killed it today. Just saying... and this was with kids moving faster than the speed of light.
You won't find a bigger proponent of zone focussing (which Ricoh's "snap focus" is a pretty good shortcut for) than me and I use the 28mm module in snap focus the vast majority of the time. Hell, I was the guy who wouldn't even TRY the RX1 until I worked out that there actually was a reasonably convenient way to use IT for zone focus! But while today's awesome sensors allow a lot more opportunity to zone focus in low-ish light, there are plenty of situations where you're simply not going to be able to get (or may not want) enough depth of field to use that approach. To me having an AF system that works well in low light is almost more important than one that works in good light.

The RX1 is very good at AF in low light as long as you remember you're in charge of keeping the aperture wide enough to work. I'd never found the Fuji to be much good at all in low contrast low light situations. Turns out its also quite good if you switch to C-AF. To me, this is really useful information both in terms of both making a buying decision and in terms of getting the most from the camera I'm using. YMMV.

-Ray
 
You won't find a bigger proponent of zone focusing (which Ricoh's "snap focus" is a pretty good shortcut for) than me and I use the 28mm module in snap focus the vast majority of the time. Hell, I was the guy who wouldn't even TRY the RX1 until I worked out that there actually was a reasonably convenient way to use IT for zone focus! But while today's awesome sensors allow a lot more opportunity to zone focus in low-ish light, there are plenty of situations where you're simply not going to be able to get (or may not want) enough depth of field to use that approach. To me having an AF system that works well in low light is almost more important than one that works in good light.

The RX1 is very good at AF in low light as long as you remember you're in charge of keeping the aperture wide enough to work. I'd never found the Fuji to be much good at all in low contrast low light situations. Turns out its also quite good if you switch to C-AF. To me, this is really useful information both in terms of both making a buying decision and in terms of getting the most from the camera I'm using. YMMV.

-Ray

Agreed Ray. And very good info. My point was really that "blazingly fast" AF is one of those new marketing checkboxes for mirrorless much like high ISO performance or megapixels were, or that "superior" AF makes one camera better than another. However, the whole should be greater than the parts - and in my mind the RX1 is a great camera taken as a whole. To be sure, fast AF is a real asset, but I hope that people with a serious interest in photography will take the time to learn about alternate focusing methods as well. I know that for you fast AF is important, but the ability to accurately zone focus is at least just as important, and today's serious compacts should be designed facilitate that.
 
Actually, fast AF is not particularly important to me in these medium to wide focal lengths. That's why I've been selling off a bunch of m43 gear, mostly lenses in the mid to wide focal lengths. I tend to be more concerned with reliable and accurate AF rather than fast, because the kinda of times I'd need fast AF, I'm almost always using zone focus on already. At longer focal lengths, generally portrait length and longer, I like it fast and accurate, and that's primarily where I'm maintaining my m43 gear going forward. I like the tricks like face recognition and even giving priority to a particular eye when they work and they really work on the OMD with the 45 and 75mm lenses. And I'm keeping the Olympus 12mm, not because of anything other than its great zone focus utility.

So I think I'm almost totally with you on this. Most of my questions about the RX1 and X100s AF has to do with low light reliability, more than speed. And it turns out that once you know the best approach to use with each, they're both quite good and better than some of the early impressions would have suggested. I'm finding almost all good news here...

-Ray
 
So ... buying or not? :)

Maybe. :cool:

I'll probably buy something before this summer. Maybe this. Outside chance of X100s, but I have trouble seeing that. If I really love it, it could ironically knock the RX1 out of contention, but I'd probably just wait for the Fuji 23mm f1.4 and maybe theX-Pro 2 body whenever it comes around (I'm guessing not until next year), depending on whether the improvements would matter to me. If I buy the RX1 it'll be because the image quality continues to blow my mind after a month. The other thing on my radar is the Nikon Coolpix A - I expect it's gonna be great in some important ways. But it would have to replace the GXR-28 in my bag and that's tough competition! If I like the interface a lot, I'll probably buy it for its size, but liking the interface enough to replace the GXR is a high bar. I could see spending a lot of time this summer walking around with the RX1 and either the GXR or Nikon in a very small bag. Or, you know, just the X-Pro and a couple of lenses, which I've happily done for a while now. It's not like I need anything new, so I'd say the RX1 is the most likely because it offers the only thing I don't have already - full frame IQ and an amazing f2 lens. I just have to figure out whether that matters enough to justify it. If I'm still really amazed by it after a month, I'll probably decide it matters enough...

-Ray
 
Agreed Ray. And very good info. My point was really that "blazingly fast" AF is one of those new marketing checkboxes for mirrorless much like high ISO performance or megapixels were, or that "superior" AF makes one camera better than another. However, the whole should be greater than the parts - and in my mind the RX1 is a great camera taken as a whole. To be sure, fast AF is a real asset, but I hope that people with a serious interest in photography will take the time to learn about alternate focusing methods as well. I know that for you fast AF is important, but the ability to accurately zone focus is at least just as important, and today's serious compacts should be designed facilitate that.

AF isn't the most important thing (if it was, I wouldn't own Fuji gear or the Sony). But... when your competition DOES have blazing fast AF, then yes, it becomes a checkbox item :) And zone focus or manual focusing techniques can't always substitute, as Ray suggested in an earlier post. Personally, I'd be reasonably happy with focus peaking that doesn't also force magnification assist as an alternative to the AF for some scenarios... fingers crossed they decouple those two in a firmware update.

[...]

I could see spending a lot of time this summer walking around with the RX1 and either the GXR or Nikon in a very small bag. Or, you know, just the X-Pro and a couple of lenses, which I've happily done for a while now. It's not like I need anything new, so I'd say the RX1 is the most likely because it offers the only thing I don't have already - full frame IQ and an amazing f2 lens. I just have to figure out whether that matters enough to justify it. If I'm still really amazed by it after a month, I'll probably decide it matters enough...

Reading this made me reassess why the RX1 is still around even though I also have overlap with other cameras. I think it's ultimately it's much like what you said - it offers a combination nothing else does right now. It's have your cake and eat it too; FF IQ with an amazing lens, yet small enough to fit in a jacket pocket. The fact that it's a good walkaround focal length means it's great for a 'grab and go' solution, and I'm not tempted to throw alens in each pocket or carry a bag and load myself up with gear (except maybe a couple spare batteries!).

Add on the top notch build quality, and the aperture ring + exposure comp dial design (only thing better is a mechanical shutter dial like on the Fuji cams) and it makes it pretty darn enjoyable to shoot with, too. At the end of the day none of the issues with it are deal breakers and most have workarounds I can live with. Never say never and all, but the more I think about it the more convinced I am that the RX1 is a keeper for me.
 
Add on the top notch build quality, and the aperture ring + exposure comp dial design (only thing better is a mechanical shutter dial like on the Fuji cams) and it makes it pretty darn enjoyable to shoot with, too.

The lack of a shutter speed dial is a non-issue for me. I use the aperture ring a lot and the exposure comp dial a lot, but I change shutter speeds so rarely that a dedicated dial for that doesn't matter to me at all. I can probably count on my ten fingers the number of times I've turned the shutter speed dial away from "A" on my Fujis over the past couple of years. So the controls on the RX1 are just right for me.

Did a quick dynamic range torture test down at the local University the other day. Here are two versions - the first is a single exposure with shadows and highlights treated in Lightroom (I kind of blew the borders on the highlight area, but you can see what the file can do), the second is one of the built-in HDR modes using a combined jpeg. I think there's a much cleaner option for this - this was one of the HDR "painting" art filter type deals. But not too far over the top. And then two quick B&W conversions from the same area. I tried the built in High Contrast and Rich Tones B&W options but didn't like 'em - I think I'm always gonna prefer to cook my own B&W shots...

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-Ray
 
The dial on the back of the camera is the shutter speed dial. The only thing it does, as far as I can tell, is change the shutter speed.

BTW, in manual exposure, to change the shutter speed/aperture combination without changing the exposure, press the AEL button and change the aperture ring. Very nice short cut.
 
Yeah, the comment about a mechanical shutter dial was me being super nit-picky, if I could dream up some hypothetical camera design. With the rest of the camera being clicky positive metal switches it just seems incongruous to have shutter speed be a soft plastic wheel. In actual practice as Ray said shutter speed gets changed less than aperture and exposure comp in most cases anyway, and it's perfectly fine as is.

Hikari, good tip on the AEL button to change shutter/aperture with same exposure. Between that and the ability to use auto-ISO with exposure comp, I may never take this camera out of M mode again :cool:
 
Yeah, the comment about a mechanical shutter dial was me being super nit-picky, if I could dream up some hypothetical camera design. With the rest of the camera being clicky positive metal switches it just seems incongruous to have shutter speed be a soft plastic wheel. In actual practice as Ray said shutter speed gets changed less than aperture and exposure comp in most cases anyway, and it's perfectly fine as is.

Hikari, good tip on the AEL button to change shutter/aperture with same exposure. Between that and the ability to use auto-ISO with exposure comp, I may never take this camera out of M mode again :cool:

Hi my name is Mike just joined
just got the RX1 can anyone tell me if you can hold the shutter open longer than the set 30 sec I want to do 2 - 3 minutes
 
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