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My Wishlist for the Next GR

Discussion in 'Ricoh' started by agentlossing, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    Yeah, I do think there will be one. In an interview this year with DPReview, Ricoh affirmed that "research is ongoing" for the next GR model. I like the ideology expressed in the GR Special Site, GR | RICOH IMAGING which indicates something of Ricoh's pragmatic approach to the camera series. They don't update just to update, they don't add features willy-nilly, they ask of everything whether it's right for the GR. It's really nice to see a company stick so closely to a specific vision with a product.

    That said, these are my little wishes for an updated model. Probably few to none of them will come to pass. But I wanted to express them, and maybe get some of your own wishes or ideas.

    • 20MP Four Thirds sensor. Yeah, you may tell me to stop polluting other camera brands with my Micro Four Thirds crusading, but I have a few reasons. For one, several people expressed some consternation at the move to APS-C for the GR cameras, which was surprising to me, as I love the sensor on the GR II. But it's true that a larger sensor isn't really fundamental to the GR ideology, it was simply the best way at the time to get better image quality than the 1/1.7" sensors in the older GRD cams. A 1" sensor would be another option, but I think M4/3 is the sweet spot. Get the same image quality as the flagship EM1 II and G9 M4/3 cameras, with better high-ISO quality than a 1" sensor, combined with a maybe slightly reworked version of the amazing lens from the GR.
    • Speaking of that lens rework, a slightly smaller sensor might open up the possibility of a larger aperture without sacrificing the small size of the lens. I'd love around a f1.7 lens with the same 28mm effective focal length. I'd take a 35mm focal length instead, but I think 28mm is pretty fundamental to the GR.
    • Image stabilization. We love it, Pentax uses it, there's no reason not to put it in here. It wouldn't need to add bulk or weight, especially since the IBIS modules for M4/3 sensors are quite compact. Or, put it in the lens like the LX100.
    • Tilt screen. Even more than a touchscreen (which would be nice) I'd really like a tilt screen for tricky lighting situations or hip shooting. Obviously hip shots are factored into the GR ethos, since you can shoot with the screen off entirely. But I shoot more than half of my street stuff with the tilt screen on my GX85 rather than the EVF. I'd love a small EVF in the GR but it would add cost and frankly isn't necessary for the simplicity of the overall camera.
    That's it! The weird rumors of curved full frame sensor and similar pipe dreams aren't what the GR needs. It's the gearheads who come up with all sorts of expensive nonsense, but the core GR should remain the same, as it's profoundly good and unlike any other camera.
     
  2. Ripleysbaby

    Ripleysbaby supernatural anesthetist

    Sep 9, 2011
    Cumbria UK
    Garry
    I’d ditch my Xpro2 + lenses in an instant
    If the new GR has a half decent evf.
    That is all I’d require. 24mp would be the icing on the cake
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Well, I disagree with all of your wishes. Please don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this to be nasty, but it's an important point. M4/3? No. Only 20mp? No. Tilt screen? A million times no. OIS? Not a deal breaker.

    For me the GR is close to perfect. That doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon. But it is a model of logical, Bauhaus simplicity. It does what a photographer needs, no less and no more. It is a supreme tool, without bells and whistles, and above all without additional complexity - things which increase cost and reduce durability.

    We are all different and we all have different needs. That's my point.

    My own wish list, fwiw, would be much more basic.

    - An updated sensor
    - Weatherproofing
    - Extended battery life
    - Better wifi
    ...and that's it.

    But - and it's a big but - Ricoh did not create the original GR, back in the days of film (yes I have had one since then) based on wish lists. They built a vision, that carved and created a niche, that they have effectively filled ever since.

    I trust them to do the right things, do I shall just wait.
     
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  4. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    I don't mind your disagreement, this is only meant as personal speculation after all! Do you care to elaborate why you would turn down the 4/3 sensor? Also, "only" 20MP and 24MP aren't really all that different in terms of actual resolution gain (i.e. pixels in vertical and horizontal positions). More resolution is always nice but it doesn't make a huge difference for cropping.

    Also there's nothing Bauhaus about the GR. Profoundly well designed, for certain.

    I too, based on the track record of the GRs so far, trust them to come up with a coherent and well designed successor. And I forgot weatherproofing, that would be a major improvement!
     
  5. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    I have used 4/3 and m4/3 from Panasonic and Olympus. The compromises, crop factor and proportions drove me nuts; ymmv.

    Bauhaus GR? I am far from the first to say that. Here's just one reference at random: Ricoh GR Digital Digital Camera Review

    Remember the concept of Bauhaus embraces how an artefact is used as much as how it looks.

    Sensor size - all I was getting at was 24mp is starting to look pedestrian. The next gen GR has to move beyond the present standard. From a personal pov since I find the digital crop very useful (and better executed than the same feature in the Fuji X100F) more MP is desirable for me.

    Again, the reason we differ is because different things are important to us and our use cases vary; that can only ever be a good thing; life thrives on diversity ;) 
     
  6. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    I'd point to Leica as more evidencing of Bauhaus design, modernism is the key design component while form and function together is more of the ethos. The GR is pretty utilitarian in design, but doesn't bear any evidence of modernism. 24MP is pedestrian? Are we talking megapixels just as an abstract, or is it something you need to be 24MP+?
     
  7. rayvonn

    rayvonn All-Pro

    Jan 19, 2015
    Pretty sure you can practically get most or all of those features elsewhere with current Sony/ Panasonic models/ setups. So no need for the GR to turn into one of them. I suspect people buy the GR because they like it as it is. I have seen a lot of comments on forums from people wanting to basically turn it into an RX100. Nothing wrong with wanting that, but why not just buy an RX100? If you move these people to one side, you will see long term users suggesting relatively minimal changes, like @Lightmancer@Lightmancer. It’s not really broke so there’s not really a lot to fix.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    put in a new sensor and call it a day.

    Also, come up with an accessory pair of sunglasses that double as a wi-fi EVF.
     
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    • Funny Funny x 2
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  9. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    Also, please make one available in white :cool: 
     
  10. emerson

    emerson Veteran

    290
    Oct 2, 2015
    Maritime Canada
    David Emerson
    Sure, evergreen the sensor. But add weatherproofing and a tilting 'clip-on' EVF [like my GX200 has] and the GR would be about perfect. I'd like FF too, but would not wish to compromise on compactness. Don't touch the wonderful 28mm FOV, the ergonomics, or the UI.

    Luke got me started on serious compacts with a GRDIII in the FS forum a few years ago. I was quickly converted, ditched the SLRs and have never looked back. As long as the GR series is available, I expect I'll stick with it in whatever iteration.

    And Luke, you don't actually mean white. What you really want is a grey-green hammertone. Seriously. <g>
     
  11. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
  12. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Oh I'd agree, but then I am approaching 35 years of Leica use... :D 
    MP4. Advice from an old timer.

    On sensor size, much as I would like to see a FF version it would be a me-too with Sony and as has already been said there is little benefit in moving out of your niche into somebody else's - unless you can fill it significantly better than they do already.

    I've already stated my personal reason for more MP. Its a combination of future-proofing and the fact that the crop feature gives me a useful 28/35/48mm FOV in a small package (with raw, which the Fuji implementation does not)

    In an absolutely ideal world, tailored to me, me me and meeting my every whim I would like to see a GR derivative à la Sigma, with a collapsible 50mm equivalent FOV lens as an option. I would buy it in an instant; in effect I already have, since I have the criminally under-appreciated GXR with the 50mm "lensor" sitting on my desk as I type.

    Oo. Look. It would be just like my Leica II...

    Bear in mind that the new GR will be born into a very different competitive landscape; just look at the p20 Pro thread to see what I mean. Fact is, the GR has many champions and fanatically loyal fans, particularly in Japan, who love and use it for what it is, not what it might be.

    I advocate evolution not revolution, planned transformation not me-too change.

    Let's wait and see...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    I think it's interesting that the APS-C sensor is a passionate point for some GR owners, since it hasn't been a longtime focus for Ricoh with their digital GRs. We've had more small-sensor GR versions than APS-C ones. Then there are people who jump aboard the rumor bandwagon of a full frame GR, which if it ever existed would change the demographic yet again: it would have to be more expensive, I can't see how it could be anything but larger (the curved sensor idea isn't viable to be placed into cameras yet, not by a long shot, and Ricoh isn't going to spearhead major R&D to put into a camera that they very clearly - and comfortably - see as a niche camera) and it would have to be much more expensive. I believe the price point for the GR is part of what makes it so democratic, and unassuming.

    I do quite like the blisteringly good image quality of the APS-C GRs, and I don't want to see that go away anytime soon. But a large part of that is the lens, rather than the sensor. It's a terrific lens. There have been a lot of requests for more standard focal lengths, but I think that's unrealistic as well. Have any of the GR cameras from the 90's on been normal focal lengths? I believe they've all been wide, and ultrawide. Ricoh calls the GR an ultimate "snapshot camera" 9by which they do not mean anything demeaning) and they tout the 28mm view as being ideal for snapshots. Now, obviously if the sensor stays the same size, the lens formula doesn't need changing, unless they can do something to reduce the movement needed for focusing in order to pick up focus speed.

    Ricoh could probably succeed again with nothing but an updated sensor and some sort of dustproofing, but then I think they count success in a very different way from most manufacturers. Where else can they really go, though? They never got on board the 1" sensor, which has its benefits (and I believe the 4/3 sensor format is criminally underused, since it has more or less been relegated to Panasonic and Olympus, while it probably has much more potential to be put into premium compacts with better high ISO than 1" - see the LX100, even though the sensor used in that one is old and less than ideal). But could they transition to a smaller sensor without damaging their goodwill? How would that benefit them? An even smaller lens system, maybe, or stabilization. With such a small body, putting an EVF in would get hard with the LCD taking up so much space, unless they used a pop-up EVF like Sony, but how much of the design of that EVF is copyrighted?
     
  14. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    If the GR ever goes back to a smaller sensor, I'll eat my hat...and any other hat out there. They didn't start with small sensors because they wanted limited "IQ"......back then, small cameras MEANT small sensors.

    I wouldn't mind seeing a new model added to the GR "line-up". Make a new GR that is exactly like the current one...with updated sensor and AF, and other minor niggles. And offer a new GR "normal" camera. It should have a 50mm lens....and I'd be open to a bigger body, and an EVF....but maybe keep it GR style and leave that good stuff out.

    As much as "I" would like to change a few things about the GR to fit MY style of shooting...I appreciate that they continue to make the same camera over and over again....even if I NEVER buy one. The camera they keep making is successful....the one I WANT them to make might not be.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    But how do you know that? Has Ricoh ever intimated such? Or do people just pick something the GR means to them and then apply that same thinking to Ricoh?

    SOME things you can discern about Ricoh's vision, because they mentioned it expressly on their GR website I linked at the outset of the thread. Among those things is the 28mm field of view. By which we can infer a 50mm GR ain't gonna happen. It strikes me that some people haven't thought outside of the box that they've settled into with this camera in a long time.
     
  16. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Thing is, people who buy a GR want a GR. I would not in a million years buy a Sony or Canon camera because they do not offer what I want.

    I bought my first GR, A GR1, in 1996. That's two whole wives ago. I have had the current iteration ever since, even through the "dark years" of tiny, noisy digital sensors, because they were the best that was available at the time. I'll buy the next generation too - unless it has a 4/3 sensor, a tilt or a touch screen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. drd1135

    drd1135 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Jul 13, 2011
    Lexington, Virginia
    Steve
    I would like to see a 24 MP APS-C sensor maybe tweaked for more low light capability. And (Sorry, Bill) a tilt screen. I hate the arms out shooting that a fixed LCD requires whereas I love the waist level shooting a tilt screen provides.
     
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  18. agentlossing

    agentlossing Regular

    35
    Mar 23, 2015
    Andrew Lossing
    Okay, since you're so adamant, can you tell us why a 4/3 sensor would make you not buy the camera?
     
  19. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    I already have. See above.
     
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