- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Didn't Steve Huff and Kai say it was a completely new sensor?
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Didn't Steve Huff and Kai say it was a completely new sensor?
"completely new", revised version, new version in the same family: hard to say without having a Spec sheet.
Sometimes you can "reverse it out" by looking at the meta-data stored in the DNG files.
The quality of the image is what counts. I'd like to see more high-ISO samples to see if they got rid of the banding problems of the M240.
Leica M10 higher ISO tests vs Sony A7RII, Leica SL…Interesting! – STEVE HUFF PHOTOS
Based on Steve Huff's ISO 12,500 shots with the M10: there is some banding. I would use Slow SD cards in my test. It made a difference with my Nikon Df shooting at High-ISO, 12,800. You would not believe the noise the 28-track digital recorder made on the Second digital imager that I worked on. Sounded like a 747.
Sometimes you can "reverse it out" by looking at the meta-data stored in the DNG files.
The quality of the image is what counts. I'd like to see more high-ISO samples to see if they got rid of the banding problems of the M240.
Leica M10 higher ISO tests vs Sony A7RII, Leica SL…Interesting! – STEVE HUFF PHOTOS
Based on Steve Huff's ISO 12,500 shots with the M10: there is some banding. I would use Slow SD cards in my test. It made a difference with my Nikon Df shooting at High-ISO, 12,800. You would not believe the noise the 28-track digital recorder made on the Second digital imager that I worked on. Sounded like a 747.
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- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Don't forget - if there are banding issues or other visual issues in these video clips, it could potentially be a video compression problem.
I've seen some example shots, including 1 at ISO200, that showed the banding, or at least a hot row of pixels.
The sample at ISO200 is posted here, on Erwin Puts' website:
Leica M10 | LEICAgraphy
Unless that is an artifact in the original picture that he is photographing: it looks like a hot-column. Again- these cameras being tested are early models, maybe production tests.
This is a new sensor, a new camera, and new firmware.
Let other people shake it out. There is the leading edge, and the "Bleeding Edge" of early adopters. This is nothing new. The Nikon F2 underwent a series of small changes and the "motor backlash" problem plagued the first year of cameras.
I would love to have an M10 for about a week. Shoot some DNG's, run them through some FFT code that I have built into my DNG code. "PINTA" is the fact that there is no "Uncompressed Raw" mode, only "lossless/Compressed DNG". I would prefer Uncompressed Raw - much easier to recover an image if any errors occur in the read/write and storage process.
The sample at ISO200 is posted here, on Erwin Puts' website:
Leica M10 | LEICAgraphy
Unless that is an artifact in the original picture that he is photographing: it looks like a hot-column. Again- these cameras being tested are early models, maybe production tests.
This is a new sensor, a new camera, and new firmware.
Let other people shake it out. There is the leading edge, and the "Bleeding Edge" of early adopters. This is nothing new. The Nikon F2 underwent a series of small changes and the "motor backlash" problem plagued the first year of cameras.
I would love to have an M10 for about a week. Shoot some DNG's, run them through some FFT code that I have built into my DNG code. "PINTA" is the fact that there is no "Uncompressed Raw" mode, only "lossless/Compressed DNG". I would prefer Uncompressed Raw - much easier to recover an image if any errors occur in the read/write and storage process.
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What's now clear from DNG analysis is the color matrix is totally different than SL, which means the dyes in CFA are different, which is a fairly fundamental change in the image sensor as a whole, more so than just a new coverglass. Possibly the naked sensor could still the same as SL. ISO is just a small bit better than SL.
Steve Huff ISO test is misleading, unfortunealty. For one thing, the Sony 42mp files always show more noise at 100%. They clean remarkably as the size comes down. So the true test would be with the same lens, something Sonys like, same effective exposure and with files made the identical size.
Since the Sony will be flat OOC, a second copy might be made with a punchiness such as the M10 delivers OOC, and all three compared. Not really very hard to do.
Don't get me wrong, I like the M10 alot. But I'd also be interested in a good comparison.
Steve Huff ISO test is misleading, unfortunealty. For one thing, the Sony 42mp files always show more noise at 100%. They clean remarkably as the size comes down. So the true test would be with the same lens, something Sonys like, same effective exposure and with files made the identical size.
Since the Sony will be flat OOC, a second copy might be made with a punchiness such as the M10 delivers OOC, and all three compared. Not really very hard to do.
Don't get me wrong, I like the M10 alot. But I'd also be interested in a good comparison.
I like the ISO knob on the Df. The best way ever invented to change settings on a camera.
and my wife used to work with voice recognition and brain-scanners, long ago.
Technology just for technology's sake does not make things better, just makes them a novelty- usually annoying at that.
and my wife used to work with voice recognition and brain-scanners, long ago.
Technology just for technology's sake does not make things better, just makes them a novelty- usually annoying at that.
I work with voice recognition and speech to text engines everyday.....they aren't like they used to be....which was severely error prone and generally cumbersome , time consuming etc etc. Not a novelty any more. A very useful method of generating text in a medical environment, as long as one does not mind some learning curve and self editing.
Not that I advocate for an ISO dedicated button. Ihave one on my X Vario and still can't figure out how to configure itls auto ISO for min shutter or max ISO limits.
Not necessarily a Sony fanboy but seems like a lot of bang for the buck. I would take a Df, any day.
Not that I advocate for an ISO dedicated button. Ihave one on my X Vario and still can't figure out how to configure itls auto ISO for min shutter or max ISO limits.
Not necessarily a Sony fanboy but seems like a lot of bang for the buck. I would take a Df, any day.
asiafish
All-Pro
- Location
- Bakersfield, CA
- Name
- Andrew
Df is nice, sometimes regret selling mine (until I shoot with a color Leica). M-D ISO dial is great, and I'm really enjoying shooting screenless.
As good as the M10 and other cameras could be or are (Df), IQ fanciers might be interested in this new hunk of plastic and metal. SIGMA must not have had any pricing input here.
Sigma sd Quattro Mirrorless Digital Camera C40900 B&H Photo
Sigma sd Quattro Mirrorless Digital Camera C40900 B&H Photo
With Sigma: The RGB pixels that are generated from the stacked sensor are counted as individual pixels. This new sensor looks like it is playing games with different sized arrays through the sensor stack. It talks about 19Million Blue pixels, meaning larger pixels underneath. Maybe this is how they deal with attenuation as light goes through the sensor.
At lower ISO: the color from the Foveon sensor should be amazing. The worst drawback of the Sigma camera- not many lenses available for the Sigma mount. Leica type lenses would not do well with Foveon architecture, color information is generated as light is absorbed at different layers of the sensor. Light at steep angles is a problem.
At lower ISO: the color from the Foveon sensor should be amazing. The worst drawback of the Sigma camera- not many lenses available for the Sigma mount. Leica type lenses would not do well with Foveon architecture, color information is generated as light is absorbed at different layers of the sensor. Light at steep angles is a problem.
I've read something about the Foveon sensor, which is a different approach and viable. I think you are right, there are issues with light attentuation penetrating the sensor and having to address the different colors penetrating to different depth. the Foveon sensor has proved how good it can be under various circumstances, although occasionally limited. the Michael Reichmans (RIP) and the Sean Reids of the world have had their go at DP Merrills....the criticsm is mainly at the Sigma software SPP, slow and cumbersome. Not the image quality.
It used to be the price that truly scared most people away. With rational pricing, you could see this camera very successful. I am not sure exactly how the Leica lenses differ substantially from A mount Sigma lenses. I have heard folks complain that SIGMA should have designed the camera to accept other lensmakers offerings. Maybe they couldn't?
It used to be the price that truly scared most people away. With rational pricing, you could see this camera very successful. I am not sure exactly how the Leica lenses differ substantially from A mount Sigma lenses. I have heard folks complain that SIGMA should have designed the camera to accept other lensmakers offerings. Maybe they couldn't?
The Flange distance of the Leica mount is small compared to the Sigma mount, light comes in a steeper angles. Now imagine that light, at a steep angle, being absorbed at different layers of the sensor to give color rendition. There will be a bleed effect.
Sigma decided on their own mount years ago when they came out with their film cameras. It was a mistake, their cameras never caught on and most of their business came from selling lenses for other manufacturers cameras.
Sigma decided on their own mount years ago when they came out with their film cameras. It was a mistake, their cameras never caught on and most of their business came from selling lenses for other manufacturers cameras.
Let's say you are correct on Sigma and their lens mount selection years ago....and that it mainly accrued to their third party lens system (which they have dramatically improved), then they continued camera development but never priced their cameras correctly for the obvious desire to pair their much bigger and profitable lens business to it. What sense does that make? Then, they adopt the Foveon, further separating their camera from anything but fixed lenses of Sigma construction(if you assume the interchangeable lenses are mostly designed for film or Sony sensors). Seems a waste of a great technology, which, I guess, they held proprietary interest and unable to compete with Sony or Canon....even through license. I came within a whisker of buying a DP3 Merrill for 400.00 which is close to my limit for camera flings. It's hard to buy a 400 dollar camera than can generate IQ better than FF or sometimes close to MF, especially one that is very portable. the clunky slow AF, the poor zone focus, the bad software.....finally drove me away. However, if your quest is IQ...then Foveon and Sigma are attractive. For 800.00.....there will be FF+ IQ.
Now, if we could only get Ricoh....to build a GXR II....I"d be all in...or an RD1 IV?
Now, if we could only get Ricoh....to build a GXR II....I"d be all in...or an RD1 IV?
The Foveon sensor in the Sigma camera is APS-C, about a 1.6x crop factor compared with full-frame.
I met a Sigma rep at a camera show, asked him some of these questions. He kind of shook his head at some of the Sigma decisions regarding the camera lines.
Polaroid had a Foveon based P&S digital camera that came out before Sigma sucked up all the Foveon technology.
Foveon - Polaroid x530
I met a Sigma rep at a camera show, asked him some of these questions. He kind of shook his head at some of the Sigma decisions regarding the camera lines.
Polaroid had a Foveon based P&S digital camera that came out before Sigma sucked up all the Foveon technology.
Foveon - Polaroid x530
In my profession of medical imaging, I have a long history with Japanese, US, and German vendors of super high end MRI/CT. All of them of relatively impervious to outside influences in the development of technologies, ESPECIALLY, the Japanese, who make very odd decisions. Although some of them have proved successful and have had good "runs".....then pooped out for lack of innovation.
Jury out on Sigma SD Quattro....and then SD H Quattro. I heard less than 1K for SD Quattro and 30mm 1.4 ART lens combo. that could be a very decent kit. Crop factor less of an issue with Foveon. Right now the NIkon D500 is the hottest things in town and it's a DX camera....with 21MP.
Jury out on Sigma SD Quattro....and then SD H Quattro. I heard less than 1K for SD Quattro and 30mm 1.4 ART lens combo. that could be a very decent kit. Crop factor less of an issue with Foveon. Right now the NIkon D500 is the hottest things in town and it's a DX camera....with 21MP.
