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Leica to sell Black and White sensor "M" camera? (rumor)

Discussion in 'Leica' started by Boid, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    Wow ... Leica just left that crappy LCD screen in the new cam. The Oly E410's LCD is better than the one on my M9.
     
  2. Iansky

    Iansky All-Pro

    Dec 8, 2011
    Cotswolds, UK
    Oh dear - can Leica really be that naive that they think these two cameras and their respective pricing will appeal to the majority?

    I suspect yet again, Leica is relying on their "Red Dot fanatics" and well healed wannabees to buy these cameras for the badge and latest offering rather than as a serious user tool.

    I am sorry if this sounds like I am being vindictive, I have been an analogue M user for years but my switch to the Digital M was my mistake ( I had the M8.2), the camera was well built but flawed and with very poor IQ above 800 ISO - mine needed 2 new LCD,s within first 2 yrs of ownership from new and the need for IR filters was a pain even though I got 2 free with purchase - I have since got rid of my M8.2 and now have the X100 that leaves the M8.2 way behind in terms of IQ so I think Leica needs to look, listen and learn rather than take a fast becoming obsolete sensor and make it B&W on a vastly more expensive camera.

    I do wonder if the Bean Counters at Leica are flexing their muscles and hoping to get more profit from sales, suspect all they are doing is slowly pricing themselves out of the general market!
     
  3. pdh

    pdh Legend

    Jan 2, 2011
    hmm ... I'm not sure that Leica see themselves as in a "general market" - not that I have any particular knoweldge of Leica, but when I look at their pricing and advertising, it looks like they are occupying their niche and are happy with it. If they are selling as many bodies and lenses as they can make, and make the profits that the owner wants (it is still a privately owned company isn't it?) , they aren't likely to try and become a volume manufacturer.
    why move into a hugely competitive and increasingly saturated market sector, when you own one all of your own with virtually none?
     
  4. Julien

    Julien Top Veteran

    749
    Jan 6, 2012
    Paris, France
    Julien
    Leica used to compete in the general market, and that led them close to disappearing. It's only when they decided to become a niche that they got back to making profits. If they priced their gear at what it's really worth they would quickly lose their aura and die.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Andrewteee

    Andrewteee All-Pro

    Jul 8, 2010
    They are profitable now and they seem to know what sells. They have their own expectations and as long as they meet those then they're set. Let's also not forget that the fact that other cameras can use Leica lenses they sell more of those than just what M buyers will buy.

    Rangefinders are inherently a niche product. No use in trying to make them more appealing and less expensive. And oddly enough increasing price can often increase demand, at least among a certain crowd.

    And BTW apparently Germany's economy is doing very well (the best in the EU I believe) because they focus on precision manufacturing of high quality products. Sort of the antithesis of the China model.

    My only disappointment is that the only (reasonable) B&W only camera is the M-Monochrom. Nice to at least have that option, but let's see more options! Sean Reid's review of it clearly demonstrates the benefits of the B&W only sensor.
     
  6. flash

    flash Veteran

    468
    May 6, 2011
    Gordon
    Unfortunately, in that size, that's currently the best LCD available. Sad though it is.

    Gordon
     
  7. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I get that a B&W specific sensor can have better resolution and better low light sensitivity than a color sensor, all other things being equal. And a couple/few years ago, when color sensors were limited in both resolution and high ISO, I might have found one compelling, shooting as much B&W as I do. But with good color sensors now available at anywhere from 16 to 32 megapixels and able to shoot pretty clean up into the ISO stratosphere at 3200 and now well above, I really fail to see the point. Particularly at Leica prices, but that's a separate discussion - I fail to see the point of ANYthing at Leica prices...

    To me, the beauty of digital shooting is getting the image in the field and then having ALL options available to you in processing. With film, you decided on your "sensor" before you shot and aside from the limited amount of manipulation you could do in the darkroom, most of what that image would ever be was cooked into the emulsion at the point of exposure. With digital, I may still decide to produce most of my work in B&W, but the final decision doesn't have to be made until I see the file and begin to work with it. Some that I envisioned in B&W end up working better in color. And for those shots I do process for B&W, having the color channels available to manipulate after the fact is a godsend. Someone earlier suggested that filtration was better done optically than digitally - why? Whatever small difference in optical fidelity there might be seems insignificant to me compared to the flexibility you gain by having the color information available while processing. I guess I can see a little bit of purist appeal, but not for me. Digital photography pulled me back into photography in the first place because of the amazing things you could do with digital processing, with almost all decisions available to you at the processing stage and the flexibility and speed of digital processing. I spent a lot of time in a darkroom as a kid - lots of all-nighters. VERY happy to spend a few minutes on a shot in Silver Efex Pro today with the ability to fine tune (or grossly tune, for that matter) an image in ways I never could back then. I can't see a compelling reason for it in these days of high resolution color sensors that work well into the iso stratosphere, particularly if you're shooting with B&W in mind.

    That said, for those of you who do, have fun with it!

    -Ray
     
  8. Brian

    Brian Top Veteran

    638
    Jul 7, 2010
    One convenience not mentioned- it saves a lot of time when you want a monochrome image. Throw a filter on the camera, no need for post-processing.

    And now the geek-speak. No artifacts due to aliasing with a monochrome detector. Color aliasing artifacts are introduced by the interpolation algorithm when producing color images from a senso with a mosaic filter. You could change the algorithm, and simply adding the pixels under each 2x2 site of the bayer-pattern (or other pattern) mosaic filter. You end up with 1/4th the effective pixels- but no aliasing. Maybe Nikon will come out with a D800EM. Or at least software to turn it into an 8MPixel monochrome camera.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    To each his own. You say "throw a filter on the camera, no need for post-processing" and I say "post processing means you don't have to mess with filters in the field", where you might get it wrong. When you can try filters back in the "not terribly dark anymore" room, you will sometimes be surprised by which one gives you the best look for a given shot.

    -Ray
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    Really?? Yikes. Well ... Maybe Leica improved the write and read speed then so that it doesn't take 3 seconds to see the image on the LCD. Or not.

    Leica, can't live with it, can't live without it!
     
  11. TraamisVOS

    TraamisVOS Hall of Famer

    Nov 29, 2010
    Melboune, Australia
    And can't afford it!
     
  12. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I can live without it. Funny, I can't live without stuff that's right on the edge of what I can easily afford. Stuff like Leica that would force me to make real compromises in other parts of my life don't even get onto my radar except as a curiosity and point of interest. Been living without it for almost 53 years now - I think I can make it another 20-40 or whatever I have left...

    -Ray
     
  13. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    Let's make it 40. :) 
     
  14. Landshark

    Landshark PhotoDog

    Jul 15, 2010
    SoCal
    Bob
    I vote for the 40
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    As long as they're good, I'll take as many as I can get. If they get bad enough, like they did for my mom in her '70s, I suspect I'd lose the will and stop fighting after a while too. But if they're good, I'd love to have another 40 or 50 for that matter!

    -Ray
     
  16. Brian

    Brian Top Veteran

    638
    Jul 7, 2010
    I figure the M9 cost me $3,000. That's about what I spent on cameras and lenses that were sold to pay for the M9. Of course, i spent a lot of time repairing the cameras and lenses, converting lenses to Leica mount, etc. But that was fun.

    So- I'm looking at what equipment will go up for sell. If I buy the M9M- it will be through selling gear. First up is going to be a 1936 5cm f1.5 Sonnar converted to Leica mount using a KMZ focus mount. Just changed the shim to optimize for close-up and wide-open on the M9. That lens will be drop-dead gorgeous on an M9M. I have more than one from 1936.
     
  17. Kingsfan

    Kingsfan Regular

    170
    Apr 27, 2012
    Highland Park, CA
    where did you get an M9 for $3k?! that's almost what i paid for an M8!
     
  18. Michael Penn

    Michael Penn Veteran

    294
    Sep 14, 2010
    Philadelphia
    Read it again
     
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