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Is anybody else out there wanting an M10?

Discussion in 'Leica' started by rflove, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    I'm glad you pointed that out because I certainly didn't say you wouldn't lose money in any shape or form. I suggested buying used because I got the camera at a reasonable fraction of the original price - so someone *was* already losing money, strictly speaking. However, that's not what I meant - and neither the seller nor I looked at it that way. I was trying to put across that it's not that big risk (if at all) to buy and try the camera, especially if you buy used - though if you want to turn a profit, you definitely won't (see used prices for M240s and M9s, as shown in your post). However, I'm not after that at all - I've wanted a digital Leica for ages, and I jumped on an opportunity to get the exact model I judged to suit my needs best. I got a pristine camera that feels a lot like a film M in most important (to me) respects, except that is isn't, but instead it's capable of delivering impressively good digital files. We'll see how it goes - but I'm not feeling bad about this acquisition, nor will anyone cause me to do so. I have thought long and hard about this for months and tried other routes and options before buying. It's not a write-off, no matter how you look at it - I'm going to use this camera, not sell it in a hurry, and I'm pretty certain I'll get my money's worth out of it in due time.

    I also realise that I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread ... It might be seen as kind of gloating ... That's not what I'm about.

    M.
     
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  2. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    I wanted an M9 for 3 years before I was able to get one.

    First there was not enough money!

    Then the sensor problem

    Then I relaxed because Leica was fixing the sensors forever

    Then they announced they weren’t fixing the sensors for ever...

    Then I decided “the time is now” deciding that I had to get one with a recently replaced sensor and I picked up a m9p from an official dealership, that had less than 6000 clicks, and had just got back from ‘the mothership’ with the new sensor, CLA and RF calibration (+ one year warranty)

    Maybe I sound like I’m boasting, but for me, it was the perfect buy and I couldn’t be happier with it.

    Wanting something for a long time and getting it is so very rewarding.

    I probably shouldn’t have quoted your post, but I decided that if I didn’t it would perhaps more seem like I was misunderstanding and discrediting your words, but indirectly

    Then I realised that I wasn’t being abundantly clear about what I was saying in regards to your post, so I edited it.

    I love forums, but sometimes it would all be a lot easier if we were all in a bar and chatting over a beer!

    I mainly see the you never lose money on an M rhetoric on the official leica forum, and I always like to counter it.

    I’m sorry if I in anyway gave the impression that I thought you saying that Leica ownsership was the new bitcoin or something, :D 

    You weren’t saying that at all, and I hope I managed to make that clear!
     
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  3. rayvonn

    rayvonn All-Pro

    Jan 19, 2015
    Matt, it would be very helpful if you did keep posting about your experiences with the Leica (please). I have never seen you gloat once not on this or the other forums. Ta
     
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  4. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    You know, the funny thing is that I'm fine with what you said, so no worries! Primarily, I'm a novice to this digital Leica thing, and I *am* wary about being seen as a fanboy or zealot of any kind, it's just not my thing. You're absolutely right about the forum aspect as well - sometimes, it's all too easy to take things personally or too seriously. It's a truncated manner of communicating - but I still like it :) 

    btw. The seller sold the M10 to go back to an M9(-P)! He said the M9 was the best M Leica ever made. Obviously, I'm not quite with him on that, but he was very definite about it and had a lot more experience, so it did rattled me a bit (the M9 was on my radar for a long time ...). But after actually handling the M10, I'm pretty much definite about my choice being the right one.

    Very much appreciated, Ray. But owning a Leica is a surprisingly (or maybe not ...) touchy subject on the whole - which is one of the reasons I was hesitant about getting one for so long. I just don't want to get caught up in all the defensive bickering I've witnessed. On the other hand, on Amin's boards, things so appear pleasantly relaxed - let's just keep it that way.

    M.
     
  5. Archiver

    Archiver Top Veteran

    738
    Jul 11, 2010
    Melbourne, Australia
    Leica isn't the new bitcoin. Bitcoin is the new Leica! :biggrin:
     
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  6. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    I looked at all of the Ms during that 3 years.

    I PERSONALLY came to the conclusion that ‘the best Leica’ rather came down to what one wanted in a Leica!

    I mean on paper the best one has to be the M240 right? Why? Well it’s got the most features :D 

    But it’s also the biggest and heaviest. And it seems that most Leica folk are more into size and weight than they are crappy clip on EVFs and video. Also the 240 doesn’t enjoy the de faco ‘special’ IQ of the preceding M8/9. There are lots of 24mp CMOS sensor cameras in the world, and to my eye the 240 doesn’t necessarily have such a signature look as its predecessors

    The M9 has a signature look. AFAIK it’s the world’s only FF CCD camera. CCD makes a different look to CMOS, a look that comes easy with CCD and requires some work in post to match on CMOS.

    But CCD has drawbacks, ISO is a limit, but also power consumption. And the M9 is slow, if you fill the buffer it takes quite some time to clear, and as beautiful as the M9 images are, it’s a <9stop DR camera.

    The M9 has some design foibles... you have to press two buttons at once to change the ISO. The framelines are calibrated at 1 meter (bear in mind that Leica consider a 0.7meter min focusing lens to be a design achievement)

    This makes for a fun experience to shoot with, you have to work within these limits to make your beautiful CCD images, and I think that’s the attraction and the mistique.

    Then along comes the M10, the smallest and lightest M yet. Decent battery life. A colour profile that doesn’t look like virtually all the other CMOS cameras. And an ISO performance that’s modern. Live view, multiple metering modes if you want them, classic RF operation if you don’t. PERHAPS the best VF of any Leica, and certainly all of the digital ones. A clever way to change the ISO

    In short, the M10 is about the size of a film camera. Makes images with a signature look. Has the digital performance that we expect of a modern digital camera under the bonnet (hood), whilst being thoroughly Leica on the outside

    I fail to see how you haven’t bought the best one to be honest.

    (If my budget had been twice the size..... But all those years I spent looking longingly at M9 images, there was only one choice for me)
     
  7. rayvonn

    rayvonn All-Pro

    Jan 19, 2015
    Fuji S5. Olympus 4/3 (not m43). Even the Panasonic LX3. These are 6mp, 8mp and 10mp cameras (not sure there are any others?) that have that CCD sensor with its (to me) signature look. Just one look at the Flickr group page for the LX3 tells you how fond its users are of it. Yet as you say @Adam Bonn@Adam Bonn , the M9 is the only FF camera with that sensor. That's the appeal of the M9 for me anyway so it's in that regard that I'm interested in seeing how the M10 compares, image-wise. Just out of interest though, I'm not buying one. Used prices in Australia approach those of the M10.
     
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  8. Leica43

    Leica43 Rookie

    10
    May 10, 2017
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Alan
    I’m in Aus. and just sold my M9, with new sensor change, for AUD2,800 towards a purchase of a used M10 for AUD7,200 with warranty still valid until Nov.2019. Think there are reasonable after market prices out there if one is patient.
     
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  9. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    I had a LX3 back in the day, and I recall it very fondly!

    Some of my early Fuji compacts were CCD and about a year a ago Fuji asked me to complie a series of images from all the Fuji cameras I'd had (which is a lot :D ) and the CCD images looked great

    It's hard to put into words (for me anyway) just what exactly it is about the 'CCD look' that so captivates... I tend to find that straight out of the box, the CCD file either looks great and need's next to no PP or something's gone badly wrong in the exposure in which case <adopt Donnie Brasco voice> fuggetaboutit. The native colour of CCD is a bit richer perhaps... but it's more than this... Like CCD files have an in-built clarity slider setting and also the tone curve seems to have a more gentle roll off at each end... I dunno... hard to put into words

    I think that you can get a reasonable approximation of this look with CMOS, but it's a reasonable amount of work... clarity, tone curves, split toning, just to match what CCD gives you as a starting point.

    M9s go for M10 money in OZ? Geez.. I bought:

    A straight back from Leica with a CLA, RF Calibration and new sensor M9P
    An ex-demo 90 'rit
    A reasonable condition 35 'rit
    A 100% mint 50 'cron
    A spare battery
    A leather 1/2 case
    (all lenses 6 bit coded)

    All for a few pence less than what a brand new M10 cost.

    OK you could argue that I "cheap skated out" with the 'rits, or that I should've dropped secondhand car money into 'luxes. But I'm really happy with the camera and the trio of lenses. Not cheap. No sir. But equally that's what many folk spend on a Canikon and a slew of lenses or the FF Sony and a load of GM glass. I know that's an awkward comparison of new vs old and top line Sony glass vs entry level Leica glass, but it's buying what makes us happy that erm makes us happy, not buying (say) the Sony just because it's got more bells and whistles and a bigger bang for the buck... IMO. YMMV

    I think that's where the M10 scores for the film M owners (like Matt) it feels similar in the hand, and I GUESS if you're mixing film and digital, you might as well have a digital that has great ISO and multiple metering modes, etc. (for me, I use one of my Fujis if I need all of that)
     
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  10. BrianS

    BrianS Super Moderator

    Apr 3, 2013
    I'm so very comfortable using my M9 and M Monochrom that I could just keep using them until no one will repair them anymore. When that happens- I'll be retired and have time for the darkroom again. But I could live with an M10m if they go back to using 14-bit or higher pixel depth. My first digital imager had that in the 1980s.
     
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  11. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    Okay, a couple of first impressions: The sensor is different from other FF 24MP sensors I've used before; colours in RAW files are muted, but when pulled up, very vibrant and saturated, so one needs to take care in post processing to not overshoot in that respect (watch your saturation slider). AWB is impressive, but sometimes tends to err towards blueish tints - not a problem for me (I do custom WB in post), but something to watch - it guarantees beautiful skies, though. More to the point, the blown highlights are a thing - highlight recovery *is* very limited. BUT (and that's a really big, balancing "but") shadow recovery is phenomenal at base ISO, so you can actually expose strictly to protect the highlights and pull details back out of the shadows in post; with the back dial set to exposure correction (or using manual settings), that's a piece of pie. Midtones are rich, transitions are very true, reliable and nicely graded (again, less pushing/pulling on sliders necessary or recommended to get a natural looking image). Detail is very strong (but that's partly due to the wonderful glass available). So, if you look for a carefree shooting experience, look elsewhere, but if you like *making* the image, this camera is a fantastic tool. Not one I've fully mastered yet, but a very rewarding one. Oh, and it's quite a quick shooter, too - very well suited for street.

    M.
     
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  12. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    Slight correction to my earlier post: Highlight recovery is possible - if there's something left of the blue channel. But the result isn't easy to balance, so while I now know I could use this, I'm not sure I'll do so frequently. You can see the result of some pretty hefty attempt on this in this post (look at the sky ...). Even so, the light was difficult and bland anyway when I was out with the Leica (it's better now, I may still go for another walk), so this is to be taken with a grain of salt - it's certainly possible to expose for the highlights (and it's simple, too - remember, the metering defaults to center-weighted, and AEL happens on shutter button half-press) and avoid the problem for the most part. It's mainly something to get used to ... or to put up with for shooting street (it's not a big deal in this case, anyway).

    M.
     
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  13. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Are you using iso 100 or 200?
     
  14. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    ISO 100 (or rather, Auto ISO, but the image in question is ISO 100); it might be worth exploring the 200 setting, but frankly, I can make this sensor work to my liking well enough already (remember, there was no reason to yank that highlight recovery slider in post, I just did to find out what would happen), so I may not even bother in the long term. I'm pretty sure the whole "issue" is overrated - as usually happens online. I for one thoroughly enjoy the fact that the sensor delivers fantastic midtones and robust shadows that are very malleable, and it obviously does that at ISO 100, too. Results at least on par with the D750's super-versatile files in terms of visual impression, with (at least) equally pleasing colours (though different). And if there's colour in the sky (not just a more or less complete cloud cover, like yesterday), you can bring it out easily. This may not be the best sensor for extreme dynamic range (landscape), but it works a treat for people and scenic stuff. And thanks to its strong shadow recovery, you *can* use it in challenging situations, you just have to work a bit differently compared to other platforms.

    The key thing: For what you carry (in size and weight), the images you can produce are stunning, period (I don't say mine are - I take a lot of simple documentary shots just because ...). To illustrate this, here's a little story: I shot a quick(!) environmental portrait of a friend yesterday (that I'm not allowed to share, sadly). I took just a single shot in a slightly quirky angle (my hallmark ...), but I've not had so much fun post processing such a file in quite a long time. Not only was the glass I was allowed to use simply magic (the Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f/1.4 - what a lens!), but more to the point, the RAW file was easy and responsive to work with; tones, colours and detail were just amazing. I've been using 24MP FF (and APS-C) sensors for a couple of years now and have been able to produce pretty reliable and solid results, but hardly ever with such a pleasing and rewarding outcome. The Sony sensors in the D750 (and its sibling used in the A7II) may be *technically* superior, but they sure aren't as far as the impact of the results and overall IQ are concerned. And I do use very good glass on the D750 and Sony (Sigma Art primes, Nikon primes - I love the f/1.8 series for the natural look they produce, even though they're not as optically perfected as the Sigma lenses -, the Sony Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 - also a lens that draws very, very nicely), so it's not only a matter of the right lens, either.

    My takeaway: Firstly, know your gear, and make the most of it. I still enjoy shooting with my small and comparatively cheap :mu43: cameras, and I use them for travelling because I can get very nice images from them without having to bother about weight and value. I know what they can do, and can make them work. Secondly, don't bother about any limitations, accept them and factor them in. Most of them are in your head anyway - or caused by trying something regardless of unfavourable conditions. Where there's no light, there's no light, where there's no frame, there's no frame. The funny thing is, most of the time, working the scene can still produce usable results - just not "perfect" ones.

    The M10 is not the be all, end all camera - but it's a wonderful one. That said, if it's right for you only you can decide. It certainly hits the spot for me - more than I dared hope.

    M.
     
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  15. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    I certainly agree with the whole ‘m10 base iso’ thing being a non issue

    Pretty much every device has a sweet spot for settings and cameras are no different

    We don’t all need the max all the time, we just need to get what we want

    Most (all?) m10 usage reports are very positive and it’s great you’re enjoying yours

    For me, I’ve loving the m9. Apparently it has under 9 stops of DR at base. According to some places on the internet that should render it incapable of making a nice photograph :) .

    Yet the m9 is generally considered to be one of the best (day light) image makers around in any camera brand and a yardstick for all other Leicas.

    I think it’s important to understand our gear so that we can use it to do want we want with it, but that doesn’t mean we want to do everything that it can do.
     
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  16. rayvonn

    rayvonn All-Pro

    Jan 19, 2015
    Enjoyable write ups there boys :thumbup:
     
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  17. rflove

    rflove Veteran

    227
    Jul 13, 2014
    So, I still want one.... Now, how to justify the $$ outlay.....
     
  18. mpeterson

    mpeterson Rookie

    23
    Mar 2, 2014
    US Midwest
    Mark Peterson
    You just did justify. You “want one” :)  When it comes to Leica, that’s probably the most common justification of the $$.
     
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  19. rflove

    rflove Veteran

    227
    Jul 13, 2014
    Oh, I totally know that I want one... The fly in the ointment is that the funds needed for the purchase would be much more wisely used in other manners... And yet, I am very inclined to buy one. Perhaps I'll try to soften the blow by purchasing a used one...
     
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  20. Leica43

    Leica43 Rookie

    10
    May 10, 2017
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Alan
    Thats what I did last January and it is still under warranty until November 2019.
     
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