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Is anybody else out there wanting an M10?

Discussion in 'Leica' started by rflove, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Take a shovel full of salt with this... but I’m sure I heard somewhere that although Leica state a base ISO of 100 for the M10 it’s really about 120, so when you set 100 it’s over exposing the shot and pulling the exposure down digitally a bit (like how ISO 80 works on an M9)

    Some folks have decided to keep their M10s on ISO200 and claim improved highlight recovery
     
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  2. BrianS

    BrianS Super Moderator

    Apr 3, 2013
    You could also try setting at -1/3 ev and then pull-up the shadows. These sensors tend to have better recovery of shadow areas rather than highlights. Once blown- the image is clipped.
     
  3. rflove

    rflove Veteran

    227
    Jul 13, 2014
    I'm a bit confused about this.... Are people saying that the M10 is a defective or inferior camera because of blown highlights? I am no authority on this and have not shot with all the different cameras out there, but I have had a lot of experience with M43 Olympus cameras & lenses (several of their flagship bodies) and several Panasonic bodies & lenses as well. Additionally I've shot a lot with the DP2-M Sigma and the RD-1 Epson as well as lots of P&S cameras by various manufacturers.
    In my opinion based on my experience, none of these cameras have been nearly as good as the M240 or Q for handling shadows and highlights. Anyway, I've never shot with a camera where the highlights were blown and could be recovered. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that surely the M10 is not going to be a step back in quality or performance for Leica. It does not make sense. Anyway, I've always been taught that one should never overexpose one's shots with the hope of recovering the highlights.... It's really photography 101. Isn't it?
     
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  4. BrianS

    BrianS Super Moderator

    Apr 3, 2013
    From the description- it sounds like the sensor is slightly more sensitive than the ISO settings of the camera. So if the camera's meter is set to ISO 100 but the sensor is closer to ISO 120, over-exposure will occur. This is more of an error in calibration of the camera to the sensor. Setting the meter to underexpose by 1/3 stop would correct this.

    With a color camera you often get at least one of the color bands not oversaturating. One could work out an algorithm to extrapolate the blown channels.
     
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  5. rflove

    rflove Veteran

    227
    Jul 13, 2014
    I don't know about recovering one color band... I also have a Nikon D60 with the APS-C sensor and on that one neither could blown highlights be recovered at least not in LR or ON1 software. Anyway, what would one color channel recovery do? I do remember trying to recover blown highlights and yes, some sort of ghoulish shades of color would appear in the highlight area but nothing in any way usable... Maybe I'm just ignorant on these things but I've never successfully recovered blown highlights. If the M10 produces blown highlights, it's indeed something to be concerned about....
     
  6. Leica43

    Leica43 Rookie

    10
    May 10, 2017
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Alan
    Sean Reid of reidreview.com, unfortunately subscription only, covered and extensively tested three Leica digitals, M (Typ240), SL & the M10. He found the M10’s native ISO is higher than the native ISO 100, probably 160 but for convenience he suggests ISO 200. The M Typ 240 had similar findings in his tests. The SL’s native I think he said is ISO 50 but is closer to 70. Sean states digital ISO doesn’t work the same way as film ISO. The take away message I got from it all was that sensors have and can shift from their native ISO under certain conditions and therefore I compensate as BrianS suggests in his above post and/or increase the ISO setting as well. Incidentally I have an M10 and in sunlight situations, where highlights can blowout quickly, I use ISO 200 and exposure compensation if required.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
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  7. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Personally I don’t think it’s a camera fault, more of a marketing line :)  not only does ISO100 sound good, but it makes for easier math and industry standard ISO settings, if base iso is really 160 as per Sean Reid’s claim, then who wants to think in terms of 1.3 + 1 iso stops etc

    Although that said, I own a summarit, and that often misleads me when I count clicks (as it doesn’t start at a full F stop)

    You can blow out the highlights on any camera. But the three colour channels won’t clip at the same time, so sometimes (for example) red has gone orange, but blue still looks ok

    Sounds like I heard something close to the truth then!
     
  8. Archiver

    Archiver Top Veteran

    738
    Jul 11, 2010
    Melbourne, Australia
    The M10 is very tempting for the slimmer body, quiet shutter, large buffer, fast operation and improved rangefinder, not to mention the good high ISO performance. I'm still very much in love with my M9, though, which has lasted longer than a many relationships and jobs (eight years), and if anything, I'd probably prefer to get a secondhand original Monochrom, which would give me the same shooting experience, use the same batteries and half cases, and feel like a proper pair.

    Having said that, my most carried cameras these days are the Ricoh GR and Panasonic GM1, simply because they are much smaller, lighter, more versatile, easier to use, and have decent image quality. The M9 comes out for more special occasions like family gatherings or trips, whereas the Ricoh and Panasonic are with me every day. A M10 in that scenario seems a bit indulgent.
     
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  9. Plaatje

    Plaatje Veteran

    216
    Oct 20, 2014
    I always wanted a Leica. Really like the looks of that camera. Did try one for a short while and my love for this kind of camera is over. It's just not for me, it feels to heavy, the buttons are on the wrong place for me. Don't know why because on my X-Pro I use the manual focussing regularly, but on this camera I really disliked it, and it's a must on aLeica M. It made my camera feel like a formula 1 car, the Leica feels terrible slow.
    My wife looked at me full of unbelief, "But this the camera you always wanted". True, absolutely true, but in reality it's not at all what I dreamed of.
    With a lot of cash and confusing we left the shop.

    I really wanted to like these camera's. I saved a lot of money for it. I really wanted to spend it on a Leica. It's not a bad camera, it's a fantastic camera, but not for everyone.
    I don't want to offend someone, I'm just confused right now. I've lost a dream, i was so close, felt so excited and than so disappointed . . .
    But life goes on . . .
     
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  10. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Maybe an upgrade to the X-Pro2 would suit you better?

    I have an m9. It’s a camera with many limitations, and I find the pleasure comes from the challenge of working within them.

    I don’t have any experience of the m10, but the reviews are very positive. I tried the m240 but I didn’t really fall for it, despite it having features I wish the m9 had (better ISO, more accurate framelines, some weather sealing, more than one metering mode)

    For my opinion the M is not a camera really designed for speedy operation.

    Yes of course you can set a zone focus, determine the correct exposure and leave the camera set to that, then just snap away. But you can do that with most cameras, it’s not a Leica thing.
     
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  11. Plaatje

    Plaatje Veteran

    216
    Oct 20, 2014
    Might be, but right now it's not the time to decide. And there will be an X-Pro3 coming soon, I hope.
    But, and that surprised me too, I loved the X-E3. Maybe I'm a fan of minimalism, really liked the back of that camera. I would have bought it if it had a tilt screen.
    But every time I pick my X-Pro1 I'm happy, so no hurry, will wait till the Photokina.
    BTW compliments for your article about the loosing eyecups.
     
  12. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Thank you wanted to wait a while before writing that, lest I put on a jinx on my now out of warranty fuji and lost the eyecup!

    One area of the M9 that’s a great feeling after the XP1 is the comparative absence of shutter lag. It’s not that the shutter lag really stops you getting a shot (well maybe a lucky shot) but it’s just a lovely feeling to fire the shutter
     
  13. Plaatje

    Plaatje Veteran

    216
    Oct 20, 2014
    it's always nice to take photo's with a camera you like.

    Do you mean you lost the eyecup again?
    that would be really bad luck.
     
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  14. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    No I mean that had I written about how fuji fixed my eyecup the day afterwards, it would be lost the day after that! So I waited 10 months....
     
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  15. Mike G

    Mike G Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    922
    Oct 7, 2016
    West London
    Mike Gorman
    Adam, that’s called being a chicken. :hide:
     
  16. MoonMind

    MoonMind All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Switzerland
    Matt
    Well, I for one have stopped wanting one. Mine's sitting right beside me. I actually tried actively to prevent this - by getting a Sony A7II and adapting my M glass to it for what it's worth, and it sure could be worse, but it's no Leica. Coming from the M4-P and M6TTL, the M10 feels like coming home, period. As for technical observations, time must tell; it's not that I'm now married with this camera for good or bad. I'll explore it, and I'm already liking the shooting experience, but that doesn't come as a surprise (see above). If you're unsure about the camera, buying used does the trick - it holds its value amazingly well and is sought after to some reasonable degree, though we'll see how the used market will develop. If you can justify the expense at all (and if you want one, you'll find a way, believe you me), it's not really a risky strategy to go ahead and get one.

    Needless to say, I'm quite happy at the moment, but thankfully, not euphoric (I was a bit afraid of that), just enjoying what is definitely a great camera with a unique pedigree and handling experience.

    M.
     
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  17. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    Hahaha or not tempting fate
     
  18. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    If one buys a secondhand m10 tomorrow and flips it on Friday, then it won’t be a very expensive mistake.

    But long term digital M ownership suffers from depreciation just like all the other ditial cameras

    Used M240s go for about £2500 on ebay, and they’re still being sold new for about £5000.

    Sure 50% isn’t bad depreciation, better than the Fuji, the Sony etc... but equally £2500 is way more than the other cameras will depreciate as usually they don’t cost that much to begin with

    Or put another way

    It’s 2012.

    Fred and Harry go out to buy a camera each

    Fred buys an M240 for £5000 (it might have been £5500 actually?) and Harry buys an X-Pro1 for £1300

    Fast forward to 2018 and it’s upgrade time for our fictitious pair.

    Fred’s M scores £2500 on ebay and Harry’s XP1 goes for £250

    Damn Harry’s taken a 80+% hit and Fred’s only dropped 50%

    But in real money, its only cost Harry £1050 to own a camera for 6 years, its cost Fred £2500

    Be vary about the value of cameras folks...

    ...of course whoever bought Fred and Harry’s ebay cameras are laughing, they’ve got machines that cost only a fraction of the original selling price, and someone else (namely Harry and Fred) took the depreciation hit.

    When these guys or gals flip those same cameras, the hit is going to be minimal.

    EDIT: I know I quoted you Matt, I’m NOT trying to rain on your parade, you sound very happy with the M10 and your film M experience undoubtedly means your digital M happiness won’t be fleeting. I just wanted to make the point that’s perfectly possibly to drop a stack of cash on a digital M. You never lose money on a Leica is a misnomer I’ve read too many times! (I’m NOT suggesting that’s exactly what you said)
     
  19. christilou

    christilou Legend

    Jul 13, 2010
    Sunny Frimley
    I decided not to trade in my M240, one could argue that I've had it five years and had my money's worth but somehow £2000 trade in against the M10 stuck in my craw and so I kept it.
     
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  20. Adam Bonn

    Adam Bonn Top Veteran

    549
    Jan 13, 2016
    Porto
    Adam Bonn
    One could also argue wait some months for the m10 to be freely available secondhand, then flip the 240 privately and need to find less cash to bridge the difference
     
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